L173 or L236?
 

The fish are in the UK, fit and well. I hope you like them PM me any questions.











And for comparison
https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/hyp...6_en_1000.html
https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/hyp...3-_en_763.html

hallo....
für mich sehen sie wie sehr schön gezeichnete L 399 aus.
lg karsten

Für mich auch, schöne L 399/L 400

Hello ?

Fantastic looking fishes! There is a big discussion about the L-Numbers you suggest and you can never say if it is a 173, 236 or just good looking L399/L400. A lot of people wonder if L173 and 236 even exist.

The one with the dots looks 50% like my L174s. Interesting variations.Can you say how long they are and where they are from?

There are at least two looking like what we call 'Mopskopf'. The head hasen't got the right shape.

Manuel

Sorry I dont understand German, but I guess L399 is your feedback.

Honestly I have about 6 suggestions of L classification for them starting at L173, 236, 399, 400, 345, Lower Xingu. It has also been suggested many times that this could be a new race of previously unknown Hypans - which is very possible, there is a lot of uncharted water in that region and the locals know better than anyone whats there. My head is spinning with the debate and maybe I'll regret the time and money invested in getting them to Europe. I had hoped there would be positive interest in them and several groups available for serious breeders.

It took 7 months to source these fish and the supplier was tasked with sourcing L173, he said no problem I;ve had them before and they went to Malaysia. So very excitedly we thought we are on to something. That was in June 2009 and finally the fish arrived in Europe last week. There was a previous batch due before hand but one of the middle men got made an offer he could receive and the batch went to Japan (apparently).

The fish were caught approximately 20hrs down river from the mouth of the Xingu/Iriri, they were in clear water very deep and very fast current. It took the fisherman 3 days to catch them as the conditions were very dangerous. From the Iriri they travelled by boat to down river and across to Itaituba on the Rio Tapajos from there they were transferred to my supplier. It took approximately 6 -8 weeks from capture to export. Over the last 9 months I have built up a very good relationship with the supplier and have no reason to doubt his word. He has told me since that he has NO intention of going through that again and will not go looking for this specie for me again. So this is probably the first and last shipment of these fish.

I think people will just have to trust there instincts and not be disturbed my the opinions of many, they have cost L173 money and i have also paid for the time it took and the trips my contact made around South America to source them. 399/400s wouldnt have cost me as much as these did, I also have large L46s from him and they are sensibly priced. These are double the UK price of wild H Zebra.

I can ship/deliver these to Germany/Holland if anyone is seriously interested then please PM me to discuss further.

More pictures
 

A few more pictures for your deliberation:

See ist this way: No matter what L-Number these fishes have, they are fantastic looking and I guess you will find someone who will buy it. Unfortunately often the serious breeders don't have a lot of money. Take care that they don't became only something to show off.

Very wise words Manuel, the L system is sadly flawed and the amazon is a vast area of water that western man has barely dipped his feet in let alone explored....Even if there are hundreds of explorers they could barely touch the surface of whats there discovered or not.

Also take into account that the fisherman are very protective of precious catch locations. So it is very difficult to know for sure. If my wife would permit me I would take a 6 month trip to brazil with a camera, snorkel and some nets.

Hi,
if i read it correctly, your supplier has broken the brazilan laws. He has exported fishes from the genus Hypancistrus, but the brazialian government says it isn' t allowed to export these fish.

I think it isn't a good think to present such thing in the web, 'cause we all hope the brazilians publish a new positivlist with species that are allowed to export. But if they read often that everyone exports species illegal, maybe their main problem isn't to develop a new list but rather to avoid such illegal and criminal acts.

It isn't important if i like the actual positivlist, but the brazilian says this is the corrct way - and its their country. Who else, if not the brazilian government is the relevant authority to decide this things - YOU?!

I think it isn't ok to present here in the public your illegal imported fish!

Bye Andi

Thanks Andi,

I to share your concerns about the Brazilian government. My fear is that dont care enough about there responsibility to the natural world. If they did why would let the planets lungs be destroyed on a such free basis? When the dam projects are complete there will be n Lower Xingu it will be more like marshland if it is lucky.

The ban wont last long anyway, it is effecting the gdp to much it didn't take long for them to reverse there decision on black rays, once they saw the demand and prices the far east were prepared to pay!!!! Money and corruption is the language in South America and sooner later it will prevail once more.

I haven't broken any EU laws, I checked thoroughly with DEFRA about what I was doing and they almost encouraged me to do, I was offered the chance to source buy this specie, they were going to be caught and sold any waI just thought if I could safe guard there future in the UK and I was hoping across europe then maybe it would actually go some way to sepcies preservation.

But maybe I am wasting my time and yours.

Administrater - can you please delete this thread?

[quote=SilverDub;181409]The fish are in the UK, fit and well. I hope you like them PM me any questions.

HI

für mich sind Hybriden von Hypancistren auch wenn es angebliche Wildfänge sind und mir kommt so vor als will er sie Verkaufen und dafür ich der Marktplatz da.

Für meinen Geschmack würde ich sag das Thema kann zu gemacht werden.

Gruß Frank

Hab ich ihm per PM auch schon gesagt. Das da eventuell jemand, vielleicht jemand in Südamerika, versucht mit Hybriden Geld zu machen. Muss ja nicht mal er sein. Aber grad die Mopsköpfe machen einen stutzig. Und das die Zeichnungen teilweise 1:1 Kopien von anderen Hyps sind. Andererseits sind ja grad die Hyps sehr Variabel mit der Zeichnung... die Körperform variert aber auch stark wenn ich das richtig sehe. Vielleicht hat der Exporteur aber auch einfach alles zusammen gepackt, was einen hohen Weißanteil hat? Man wird es (vermutlich) nie erfahren.

Mit dem Verkaufen hast Du Recht. Also würd ich es zumindest in den Marktplatz verschieben.

Viele Grüße, Manuel

Edit:

Hey Alan,
you already opened a thread here:
https://www.l-welse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=179600

Hi Frank,

"HI

For me are hybrids of Hypancistren even if they're allegedly Wild and comes before me as if he wants to sell it and I the marketplace there.

For my taste, I would say the issue can be made.

Gruß Frank"

If they are Hybrids it occured naturally inthe amazon.

Hi Manuel, thanks for your input

Have I already told him via PM. This may be because someone, maybe someone in South America, trying to make money with hybrids. Should not he be so times. But the degree Mopsköpfe take a pause. And these are the drawings of some 1:1 copies of other Hyps. On the other hand are indeed the degree Hyps very variable with the drawing ... The body also varies greatly, but if I understand it. Perhaps the exporter is also packed it all together, which has a high proportion of white? One will never know.

looking directly at the fish directly none of them have pronounced Mopskopfe - bullnose one of the fish on the pictures with many vertical stripes appears to have a sharp angled head i think the position and angle of the photo makes this look worse.

Sorry for posting them in this section initially this isn;t a for sale article it is I have these fish what are they ? They were exported under the L173 name but some of them look like L236 and/or L345.

Thanks for everyones input but maybe I think I am upsetting people and myself so would like this thread closed.

Hey Alan, you're not upsetting anyone. It is normal here to discuss everything controversial. No offence on you or your intensions. I know sometimes we are a little bit to direct and biting if you're not used to it. ;-)

"They were exported under the L173 name but some of them look like L236 and/or L345. "

Like I said, most of them look great. No matter what they are.

And like Stefan said in the other thread: "guess even the most experienced L-catfish expert in Germany, Ingo Seidel, can't verify the correct L-number with these pictures. I want to say, no reliable identification, no L-number."

Sorry if I see bullheads where no bullheads are. The right one on L241044.jpg looks like it.

There is a lot of money involved in this illigal exports and everywhere where's a lot of money involved people... let's say it friendly... sometimes don't tell the hole truth. Especially in South Amerika...

My opinion is you can sell these fishes as Hyps sp. but the try to get them a L-number is an impossible mission. The only reason to get them a number is to get a higher price. Which is lawfull and normal. Again no offence.

Manuel

Him,
as Manuel already wrote, if you don't have the correct location where these fishes got caught no one would be able to help you with the correct l number.
Most of the south american export companies want to make some cash with l catfishes right now and since it is illigal you shouldn't get your money into it until some interesting l numbers occure on a new positive list.

Some new pictures of the smaller fishes that came in with the above. Hope you like them?

https://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3873

Hallo,

oh großer Fischgott wir loben dich...,
dass du uns solche Raritäten schenkest, die wir dann als DIE L-Nr. bezeichnen dürfen.
Meines Erachtens nach sind das alles keine L173 oder L236, sondern alle aus dem Komplex L 399/400.
Alle L236 die welche sein könnten, haben einen sehr rundlichen Kopf im Profil und einen rötlichen "Anflug" in der ersten Binde nach dem Kopf und haben im gesamten eher ein Creméweiß als so weiß. Die L173 waren hingegen allesamt sehr schlank, gestreckt und erinnern schon ein wenig an L46 im Körperbau.
Leider habe ich bis dato nur 6 L173 sehen können und die waren zudem noch sehr klein und ein Pärchen L236, dass aber auch jeder, zumindest von Bildern her kennt.

Eigentlich könnte man doch die L-Nummern-Krise im Bezug auf diese Wurmlinien-Hypancistrus aus dem Xingu langsam wirklich beenden und alle in einen Topf werfen. Keiner wird da jemals Ordnung reinbringen können. Eher kommen noch weitere X Nummern zum Vorschein. Oder wir lassen Armbruster mal ran, (der einzige der sich wohl trauen würde) dann werden es sicherlich aber auch nur 1 bis 2 Arten.

Hello SilverDub,

I like your L ??? Hypancistrus, they are looking pretty good. I hope you have paid as much as the prize of a new car for your lovely pleco´s. I would rather invest my money in a wonderful group of L 399 and a new car.
Sorry for my bad english, have fun with your pleco´s.

Hope you like my answer?

Greetings Benjamin

L236
 

Hallo,
hatte damals ein Tier in einem ähnlichen Beitrag per Fotos gezeigt ( https://www.l-welse.com/forum/showth...ht=L236&page=4 ). Möchte heute mal auflösen was es für ein Hyp. war, damit es mal ein wenig ruhiger um L236 wird. Zur Zeit der Aufnahme war der Wels 10cm. Hatte vor 10Jahren L66 gezüchtet. Aus mehreren 100 NZ stach dieses Jungtier aus der Masse hervor, so das ich diesen als einzigen behalten habe und großzog. Dieser L66 finde ich sieht den L236 aus dem Welsatlas ähnlicher als viele andere hier gezeigten Welse in anderen Beiträgen. Viele der hier gezeigten schöneren L236 sind meines erachtens L66 / L400 oder L399.
Miniaturansicht angehängter Grafiken
Gruß Markus

@ Hexenfreak

Thanks I think for your comments, I have used Google translate and think I understand your point - here is the translation:
Hello,

big fish oh God, we praise you ...
us such rarities that you give, then we as THE L-No. may designate.
In my opinion, these are not L173 and L236, but all of the complex L 399/400.
All the L236 which could be to have a very rounded head in profile and a red "tinge" in the first binding to the head and have the whole more of a cream white than that. However, the L173 were all very slender, elongated, and remind a bit of L46 in the body.
Unfortunately, I can see so far, only 6 and L173 were also very small and a pair of L236, but also that everyone knows at least from her pictures.

Actually you could but the L-numbers-stop crisis in relation to this worm line Hypancistrus from the Xingu really slowly and throw all into a pot. No one will ever be able to because reinbringen order. Rather, there are another X points to the fore. Or do we let Bowman ran times, (the only one who would dare well) then it will surely also only 1 to 2 species.

I have concluded that my very poor photography skills arent helping anyone with the ID's. With this in my mind my only option is to let them settle down and condition up, next weekend i have 4 custom photo tanks in the hope that I can take some pictures that do the fish the justice they deserve. I have approximately 80of these Hypans none of which are for sale, for me identifying them has become more important (if this will be done). Hexen, please send me an e-mail to a.holt@tompla.com and I will send you some pictures back of a beautiful adult 236 (if such a fish exists) I have 4/5 adults and many juvies that came in this batch that have the same creamy base colour and angled vermiculate lines. They have been in the UK now for 9 weeks and are looking beter with every week that passes. Thanks for everyones interest and I will occassionally post more pictures.
Alan

@ Zakk, thanks for your comments Zakk, yes these fish did cost more than a new small hatchback car. This is why I got so frustrated (and still am to a certain degree) but I have lots and lots of them so hopefully in time they are justified.

@ Cleaner thanks for your post - wow that is a pretty tank bred 66, for me I would never have guessed that from the colour and pattern. As I and many people have previously said Hypancistrus have become a complete messso many have been shipped, bought, sold, bred together without knowing there true bloodline. Also I think that in many years time with DNA testing we will find there are only a few differant species and like the malawis and tangyanikan cichlids of the rift the valleys they are just regional variations. I have learnt that in evolutionary scale Hypans are very young and so are still trying to work themselves out.

I will keep everyone updated

Alan